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Anwar Ibrahim Sodomy II – The Recorded Truth – 25 Februari 2011 March 2, 2011

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Mahkamah Tinggi Jenayah 3 KL
Di hadapan Yang Arif Dato’ Mohamad Zabidin Mohd Diah

Pihak-pihak:-
PP    : Semua hadir
PB    : SN, Ram Karpal, Datuk Param Cumaraswamy, Marissa Fernando (KS, Dato’ CV Prabhakaran, Radzlan tidak hadir)
WB    : Zamri Idrus (for Complainant)
Expert for defence: Dr. Brian McDonalds
AI hadir

[8.55 a.m]
MY:    Kes untuk pemeriksaan balas SP6, Pn. Aidora.

SP6 reaffirm in English.

Cross-examination by RK.

Q:     Aidora, you are a graduate of University of Auckland?
A:    Yes. In 2008 for my Masters.

Q:     In your CV, under court testimony, para 4. You mentioned the courts in which you have given evidence ranging from the Syariah to the High Court. How many times have you given evidence in court?
A:    More than 15 times.

Q:    When was the first time you gives evidence in court?
A:    In 2000.

Q:    So, for the last 10 years, you’ve been to court for 15 times?
A:    More than 15 times.

Q:    What was the purpose of you attending court on those 15 occasions?
A:    To give evidence pertaining to my report and to assist the court.

Q:    On DNA profiling, I assume?
A:    Yes, on DNA profiling.

Q:    You have given evidence pertaining to paternity cases in the past?
A:    Yes, I have.

Q:    How many times?
A:    Not a lot. Maybe around 3-4 times.

Q:    Before this case, when was the last time you gave evidence in court?
A:    I think the last one is on 31st Jan.

Q:    In Malacca?
A:    I’m not sure whether in Malacca or in Shah Alam, I can’t remember.

Q:    And that was in relation to standard DNA profiling?
A:    Yes, in relation to murder case.

Q:    The samples tested for that case is standard DNA samples? There was a mixture involved in that case?
A:    Yes, there was a mixture.

Q:    You have been attached to Jabatan Kimia Malaysia in PJ since 1998?
A:    Yes.

Q:    What machines are used in Jabatan Kimia Malaysia for DNA profiling now?
A:    At the moment now we are using the Identifilier kit which is one at locus for [] which is anmelogenin, 15 STR locus produced by Applied Bio-systems.

Q:    Have you heard of Promega?
A:    Yes, I have.

Q:    What is it?
A:    It is also another company, manufacturer.

Q:    Is it a competitor of applied Bio-systems?
A:    Yes, you can say that.

Q:    That’s the kit. What about the machines? What machines were used in Jabatan Kimia Malaysia?
A:    In Jabatan Kimia Malaysia we are using Genetic Analyser 3130XL which is the latest model from the 3100XL. It is more or less the same thing. It is also manufactured by the Applied Bio-systems.

Q:    How long the Jabatan Kimia Malaysia has been using the 3130 XL machine?
A:    Since beginning of 2007.

Q:    So, you agree that the 3130 instrument were used in this case?
A:    Yes.

Q:    You have given us your CV. You agree that the significant experience relating to your job is stated in your CV?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Page 2 of your CV.  Paragraph 6 – the training and courses attended. Ranging from analysis of drugs to crime scene processing investigation.
A:    Yes.

Q:    The purpose of this courses you attended were to gain better understanding and knowledge of your practice, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    You have Forensic Serology Course, Social Research Methodology and Statistical Analysis. These courses relate to statistical analysis, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    They stressed the importance of statistics in DNA profiling?
A:    Not number 13. It’s in no 9 – Statistic Population Genetics and DNA View Software for Caseworks and Population Analysis Course.

Q:    That was course was attended on 16-20 December. That’s a 5 days course?.
A:    Yes.

Q:    Take us to the statistical courses that you undergone.
A:    Item 9,17 and 24 under Training and Courses Attended in CV.

Q:    Do you agree that you were sent to this courses was to appreciate the statistics when it comes to DNA profiling?
A:    Yes.

Q:    It is important isn’t it to accompany your findings with statistical data?
A:    Yes.

Q:    That is crucial to your findings? One of the crucial factors before you reached your findings?
A:    The statistic was done to give [] to the evidence.

Q:    It’s support your findings, isn’t it?
A:    It is not part of the finding. The match is the finding.

Q:    The question is this, the statistical courses you attended, they are significant in your field of work, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    And your field of work is DNA profiling?
A:    Yes.

Q:    There is a purpose for coming out with statistical data, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    And that purpose is to corloborate your findings, am I right? Or support your findings.
A:    To give [] to the evidence.

Q:    In other words, that statistical data that you do will benefit your state of mind before you reach to a conclusion?
A:    I don’t understand. Can you please rephrase the question?

Q:    You do statistical data?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Would it be correct to say that you do it for each DNA profiling that you do? For each case?
A:    Yes, when there is a match.

Q:    So, you do statistical data for each case you handled?
A:    No. For each case where there is a match.

Q:    And you claimed there is a match in this case?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So, you would have done the statistical data in this case?
A:    Yes, I have.

Q:    And those data will be in your case file?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Which you are in possession of it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    The instrument 3130XL, is it responsible for produce statistical data?
A:    No.

Q:    Which machines are used to produced the statistical data?
A:    A computer.

Q:    Only a computer?
A:    Any computer that have the DNA view software.

Q:    So, it is the DNA View software that is responsible for generating statistical data?
A:    The DNA View software is used to calculate the statistical data, but to generate it I need a computer and printer to generate it.

Q:    I’m talking about the statistical calculation. The DNA software is responsible for it, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    In your CV, para 6 again. Did you at any time attend any course relating to the use of 3130 XL instrument?
A:    It is the 3100XL Genetic Analyser by ABI.

Q:    No, 3130XL instrument. Did you attend the course?
A:    No. Can I explain?
RK:    You can explain later.

Q:    In your CV, you stated that you attended course for item 16-18.
A:    Yes.

Q:    For the large part of 2005-2007, you were not in the country, in Jabatan Kimia Malaysia?
A:    No, I’m not.

Q:    In your report, ID62 at page 2 “on other comparison of the above DNA profiles with the DNA profile reported by Dr. Seah Lay Hong bearing laboratory number (PJ) FOR 6334-08/0 and (PJ) FOR 6334/08-2…”.  So, you are

aware of Dr. Seah Lay Hong’s report in this case aren’t you?
A:    Only her report.

Q:    Were you aware of the content of her report when you prepare ID62?
A:    I have it with me.

Q:    No. I mean, you must have it with you, otherwise you wouldn’t reported it in your own report. Or were you aware of this content when you prepare your report?
A:    No.

YA:    Not today. They were asking about then. Were you?
Q:    You prepare this report, isn’t it?
A:    Yes. And I compare it with Dr. Seah’s report.

Q:    So, you must have been aware of the content of her report at least?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Do you agree that your report is prepared to be read together with Dr. Seah’s report? Is that one of the purposes of your report?
A:    Yes.

Q:    It has to be read with Dr. Seah’s report. It can’t be read in isolation, right?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Dr. Seah is in the same building at Jabatan Kimia Malaysia?
A:    On the fourth floor.

Q:    Where were your office?
A:    On the fourth floor. We were in the same lab.

Q:    You both work closely with each other?
A:    Not really.

Q:    Both are on the floor?
A:    Yes.

Q:    How far is your office from Dr. Seah’s?
A:    From myself to the lady wearing blue scarf (points to the lady).

Q:    Very close?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So, you are in contact with her everyday? Most days?
A:    We see each other, yes.

Q:    In this case you knew that Dr. Seah is involved in this case when you came on board, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    When you get this case, you knew that Dr. Seah had prepare a report and is involved in this case?
A:    Yes, I know. I have that knowledge.

Q:    In what way was she involved to your knowledge at that time?
A:    At that time in my knowledge I only knew she is involved in this case and that’s it.

Q:    When did you received the items that is to be analysed in this case?
A:    I received it from DSP Jude Blacious on 17.07.2008.

Q:    What are your working hours?
A:    From 8 a.m. to 5 p.m.

Q:    Do you remember what day is 17.07.2008 was?
A:    I don’t remember.

Q:    It was on Thursday, I put it to you.
A:    Okay.

Q:    It was a Thursday, it was a normal working day, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So, you clock out at 5.00 p.m.?
A:    No. On 17.07.2008 I did not.

Q:    Other days you would have isn’t it?
A:    Other days, generally I clock out around 6.00 p.m.

Q:    The exhibits in this case were brought to you after your normal working hours, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    What is so urgent about it?
A:    I was informed by my Director General, that I have to handle this case.

Q:    You were informed by your Director General?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Who was your director General?
A:    Mr. N. Hitayajivan.

Q:    When did he asked to you to handle this case?
A:    Around after lunch. He informed me that Dr.Seah has gone for her training overseas, she is not around and he says that I have to handle this case and I have to wait for the police to come.

Q:    Who was the Head of Forensic DNA Profiling?
A:    At that particular time, it was Mr.Primulapathyjaya is the Director of Forensic and Mr. Lim Kong Boon is the Head of Section.

Q:    That Forensic Department is it specific for DNA profiling?
A:    No. The Forensic DNA Section is.

Q:    You told us you have given evidence in court before.
A:    Yes.

Q:    So, you have received samples before in the past?
A:    Yes.

Q:    And you were given instruction to carry out necessary test on the samples?
A:    No…

Q:    Someone will tell you to handle the case and you carry out the necessary test, isn’t it?
A:    Yes, to do DNA analysis.

Q:    So, someone will tell you or instruct you to do that, isn’t it?
A:    I’ve been instructed by my boss to received cases but how I do my DNA analysis…
A:    Yes.

Q:    I’m not question your DNA analysis. Not yet. At this juncture, your boss will tell you to carry out the test, isn’t it?
A:    He will instruct me to receive the case.

Q:    Which means subsequently you will carry out the test, isn’t it?
A:    The test will be determined by what the police want. The are my client.

Q:    You carry out the test?
A:    Yes.

Q:    You received the case upon instruction by your case?
A:    Yes, I received the case upon instruction of my boss.

Q:    Having received the samples, you would take the samples and do what you need to do, isn’t it?
A:    Yes, as per what the police want. As per the POL 31.

Q:    Your boss will be the Head of the DNA Section?
A:    Yes.

Q:    You would normally received instruction from Lim Kong Boon?
A:    Normally, yes.

Q:    All these cases – murder cases, drug case, Mr. Lim Kong Boon will bring you [] and said “Look, please receive this case and do the necessary”. Isn’t it?
A:    In normal case, the police will come in normal hours.

Q:    But they will go to Lim Kong Boon first and then Lim Kong Boon will pass it to you?
A:    Yes.

Q:    That is the purpose of this department, isn’t it? To receive such cases.
A:    Yes.
Q:    Am I right this is the only department in Selangor for DNA analysis?
A:    Yes.

Q:    And KL as well?
A:    In 2008 we only have two DNA labs, one in Kuching and one in PJ.

Q:    So, it applies to Peninsular, isn’t it? The cases in the Peninsular will be handled by the PJ office?
A:    Yes.

Q:    The first case you received, that was in 2000?
A:    That was the first time I testify in court in Kuching.

Q:    Is that case has anything to do with DNA profiling?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So, did you go to court and give evidence on DNA profiling in 2000?
A:    Yes.

Q:    You received samples in that case?
A:    Yes.

Q:    The first case you received back then, who was the head of the DNA Section at that time?
A:    Mr. N. Hitayajivan.

Q:    He is the DG now, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Back then Mr. Hitayajivan was what Lim Kong Boon was in 2008?
A:    Yes.

Q:    The second case you received?
A:    I can’t remember.

Q:    In 1999-2000, Mr. N.Hitayajivan is your head of DNA. After that who took over his position?
A:    Mr. Primulapathyjaya.

Q:    I take it Mr. Primulapathyjaya was promoted as Head of Forensic Department and Mr. Lim Kong Boon took his position?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So, it is norm isn’t it for you to received samples and insytructions on what to do with the samples.
A:    To received case.

Q:    And instructions, he will tell you.

MY:    No. I mean she has been answering that and you keep repeating trying to say she received instructions. She received the case.
RK:     Are you trying to ask question on my behalf?
MY:    You are putting it in her mouth. She has answered.
RK:    This is cross, YA.
MY:    It doesn’t matter. Under S.143 doesn’t say that you can do that. You can read the Evidence Act 1950 if you want to.
RK:    My lord, is my learned friend interrupting with my cross?
MY:     I am interrupting because you are putting it into her mouth. []
RK:     I’m not. What am I putting?
MY:    That she received instructions but she said she received a case.
RK:    []
MY:    You’ve been asking for that question several times.
RK:    Are you going to interrupt me?
MY:    Yes, because the law doesn’t allow it.
RK:    YA, if my learned friend interrupt me, it is very difficult for me to cross.

YA:     Proceed for the time being. But, please don’t repeat. If she has given answer, don’t ask again.
RK:    She’s been giving me answer on 2007, 2008. I’m going back in 1999, 2000. If my learned friend cares to listen []
MY:    []
YA:    Proceed.
RK:    There are reasons why I ask this question. My learned friend might think he understands.
MY:    Of course I understand.
RK:    Please don’t interrupt me. You see he has interrupt me now I have to think again. Wasting of court’s time.
YA:     Proceed.

Q:    You received samples. You received instructions, don’t you?
A:    No, I don’t.

Q:    You were told to take DNA test, isn’t it?
A:    …

Q:    When you received a case, would your boss just give it to you?
A:    Yes, he would.

Q:    What is it for?
A:    For me to receive the cases.

Q:    And do what?
A:    Do as what the POL 31 says.

Q:    Do you receive any instructions from your boss?
A:    No, I don’t.

Q:    So, you don’t received instruction from your boss?
A:    I received instruction from my boss to receive the case.

Q:    You received samples?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Your boss gives it to you?
A:    No. Samples were given to me by the police.

Q:    How was your boss involved?
A:    My boss does not involved. He just give me POL 31 to take that case.

Q:    So, your boss give you the POL 31?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Having given you the POL 31, does he has any involvement after that?
A:    No.

Q:    So, it’s a norm isn’t it for you to receive the POL 31 form initially from your boss who is the Head of DNA Section?
A:    YA, I don’t understand the meaning of the word initially.

Q:    Right at the beginning of the case, you will receive samples, right?
A:    The police will come with the POL 31.

Q:    No. You must answer.
A:    I don’t understand the question.

Q:    You received samples in cases?
A:    Yes, I do.

Q:    When do you receive them?
A:    When I see the police and they pass me the samples.

Q:    That would be the beginning of the process and after that which you will do the test, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    The Head of DNA Section, in this case Lim Kong Boon, he will call you in telling you that a case has been assigned to you, isn’t it?
A:    No. When there is a police who come with a case, the POL 31 will be passed to the Section Head of the DNA Laboratory, in this case at that particular time was Mr. Lim Kong Boon. Normal procedures, if he is not around,

the next senior chemist will have a look at it and then passed it to the person that is fit to receive the case. So, the passing of POL 31 can either by himself or he can just ask his personal assistant to give it for him and he can also

ask any person to give the document to the person who is supposed to received the case.

Q:    So in normal cases, the head of DNA section, like Lim Kong Boon will first received the case, right?
A:    Yes

Q:    He will be the first one the police will come to and give the case?
A:    No. Not the police come him. The police come to the counter. He cannot see our Section Head.

Q:    Lim Kong Boon, the head of the DNA section received the case first? Before you are involved, Lim Kong Boon was is involved, isn’t it?
A:    He did not received the case. You did not understand. When the police come, he reached the counter. He’ll give the POL 31, then he’ll look at the POL 31 to decide who is fit to receive the case. After that either he himself

or he will get somebody to give on his behalf to the person who he sees fit to receive the case.

Q:    So, the police will come to the counter first?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Normal counter?
A:    Yes.

Q:    How many counters are there in Jabatan Kimia Malaysia?
A:    Only one.

Q:    The police will come to the counter and tell that this is a forensic case.
A:    It’s a  DNA case.

Q:    The head of the department will come out and meet them?
A:    No.

Q:    Not necessarily?
A:    No, not necessarily.

Q:    If he is there he will come?
A:    Usually he is not there. He does not go out and take it from the police. The counter is out of the lab. Usually we will have people who work at the counter to pass the POL 31 form to the Section Head, in this case Mr. Lim

Kong Boon,

Q:    So, the police will pass it to the people at the counter and the people will gives it to Lim Kong Boon and later Lim Kong Boon decides what to do?
A:    Yes, he will assign it to the chemist who he thinks is fit.

Q:    Does the DG sits at the counter?
A:    No.

Q:    He is not normally involved in this counter business?
A:    No.

Q:    Where is the DG office?
A:    In the main building.

Q:    So, he will not [] at the counter
A:    No. He is not.

Q:    Normally DG doesn’t come to the counter and receive cases?
A:    No.

Q:    And at this time, N.Hkitayajivan is the DG?
A:    Yes.

Q:    He received the case, isn’t it?
A:    No, he did not received the case. I received the case.

Q:    But before that, you told us that Hitayajkian was informed by the police about this case, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.
Q:    That’s he went to the counter, isn’t it?
A:    No.

Q:    It would be absurd for him to go to the counter, isn’t it?
A:    YA, I told the learned counsel just now that my boss around after lunch told me to receive the case by phone.

RK:    Aidora, I’m asking you a question. I’m not interested in your explanations. You must understand that. I’m only interested to the answers of my question. If you are unable to answer it due to whatever reason tell me and I

will repeat it as best as I can. Do you understand that?
SP6:    Yes, I hope so.

Q:    These samples in this particular case, you were informed by the DG himself?
A:    Not the samples, the case.

Q:    The case was related to you by the DG himself, right?
A:    Yes, I was instructed to receive the case.

Q:    He called you by phone, right?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Did you go and meet him after that?
A:    No.

Q:    What do he ask you to do over the phone?
A:    He said that he had a discussion with Mr. Phathy and Mr. Lim and they think this is a big case because it is a high profile case.

Q:    This is a high profile case, so the DG was involved?
A:    No, the DG is not involved.

Q:    DG normally does not involve with the counter?
A:    No, he did not.

Q:    In normal cases, the Head of DNA Section, Mr Lim Kong Boon or any other person in his position who will assign cases, right?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So, in this case it is unusual for the DG to call you, isn’t it?
A:    No.

Q:    So, if it’s a high profile case, the DG will call you?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Which means the DG would initially received the case?
A:    No, he did not.

Q:    Would he have spoken to the police initially?
A:    I don’t know.

Q:    Must have, isn’t it?

MY:     She wouldn’t be able to say that.
RK:    I mean in her experience.
MY:    It is hearsay. []
YA:    But she said she doesn’t know.
RK:    I’m asking in her experience.

Q:    When Lim Kong Boon received the case….
A:    He did not received the case.

Q:    When Lim Kong Boon is involved in the case….
A:    He is not involved in the case.

Q:    Then what did he do?
A:    He just gives POL 31 to any of the chemist.

Q:    So, when does the POL 31 comes from? The sky?
A:    The POL 31 was given by the counter staff to him.

Q:    From where the POL 31 comes from a the counter?
A:    From the police.

Q:    So, normally it is the police who starts the ball running, isn’t it? They will come to Jabatan Kimia Malaysia, go to the counter and gives POL 31, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So, the police is the one who initiates the matters.
A:    Yes.

Q:    So, in this case, in your experience, you have told us how the police starts investigation or initiate matters and they will come to the counter. So, before they come to the counter, nobody knows about this case. Right? It

is completely alien to Jabatan Kimia Malaysia?
A:    Not necessarily.

Q:    Normally?
A:    Depends on the cases. If the police calls and say they are sending. I wouldn’t say not normal. We’ve got cases where the police called before hand and says they that are coming.

Q:    So, the police comes, generally they will go to the counter, hand over the POL 31, right?
A:    Yes.

Q:    The counter staff will receive the POL 31.
A:    Yes.

Q:    Having received the POL 31, the counter staff will normally give it to Lim Kong Boon or whoever in his position, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Because he is the particular Head of DNA department.
A:    Section.

Q:    All this normal things you can tell us confidently about all the steps, right?
A:    I wouldn’t say confidently.

Q:    But generally this is the steps, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Based on your experience, the DG won’t be at the counter?
A:    No.

Q:    He has his own office?
A:    Yes.

Q:    And his job scope concerns the entire Jabatan Kimia Malaysia not only the Forensic department. He has lots of work, isn’t it?
A:    I supposed so.

YA:    Kalau tau bagitau, kalau tak tau takpe.
SP6:    YA, I’ve never been a DG before. I supposed it’s a big scope. That’s why I answer I supposed.

Q:    But, it is reasonable that the DG won’t be at the counter?
A:    Yes.

RK:    YA, I’ve really to ask this question. The witness is not answering it. So, I’ve to ask again.

Q:    DG calls you and said this is a high profile case?
A:    Yes.

Q:    And he is assigning it to you?
A:    Has made a discussion with the Head of Forensic Divison, Mr. Primularpathy Jaya and the Head of DNA Section, Mr. Lim Kong Boon and they feel that I’m the next fit person to receive the case..

Q:    From what you have told us, someone must have passed the POL 31 form to the DG, isn’t it?
A:    No. It was just a case, not the POL 31. He just called me.

Q:    When he called you, you have knowledge of this case, isn’t it?
A:    Just a case coming which is this case, that’s it. I don’t know what samples, who is gonna come, I don’t know what time it is coming, I just have to wait for the case.

Q:    Where is Hitayanjivan now?
A:    He’s retired.

Q:    []
A:    []

Q:    Go back to your CV. Would you agree that the courses that you attended were are designed to train you in particular field of such courses? This is to give better understanding of those field?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Having trained in such field you’ll be in better position to deal with matters pertaining this field, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    You have conducted certain courses as well.
A:    Yes.

Q:    Those courses that you have attended would have been as a result of your training, isn’t it? The training will gives you the knowledge and enable you to conduct the courses as a result, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    For example, Forensic DNA: Police Personnel. You conducted a course on that?
A:    Yes.

Q:    You would have been trained before conducting this course?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Under paragraph 6 – training that you attended, is there any course that you attended pertaining to police personnel?
A:    Item 10 – Advanced Forensic DNA Training and Expert Witnesses Training course.

Q:    Expert witness will mean what?
A:    It means they put me on a stand in a mock up like in a moot court and they ask me questions.

Q:    These course that you have attended, are very important to the knowledge that you have today?
A:    Yes.

Q:    You said you conducted a hair examination course. Where did you gained that knowledge from?
A:    In the hair examination course, it’s conducted by me by the Department of Chemistry.

Q:    Did you gain the knowledge?
A:    No.  Because it wasn’t me conducting it when it comes to the  teaching. In this particular course, I conducted the training in terms of I handle it in Jabatan Kimia Malaysia. However the people who teaches is two person

form the Australian Federal Police.

Q:    Do you have any knowledge on hair examination?
A:    I have a bit but not very thorough.

Q:    Do you have knowledge on the hair examination to be an authority in the field?
A:    []

Q:    But you have stated that in your CV under courses conducted. You wanted us to believe that you have conducted such training, isn’t it?
A:    I conducted the training but it was not me who gave lectures on it.

Q:    []
A:    []

Q:    You are not involved in the actual lecturing of the hair examination?
A:    No, I’m not.

Q:    Conducting will mean also lecturing, isn’t it?
A:    Yes, but it wasn’t me who did the lecture.

Q:    So, you don’t know much about hair examination do you?
A:    I know a bit based on my training.

Q:    You don’t know much about it?
A:    Yes, I don’t know much about it.

Q:    It shouldn’t be in your CV, don’t you think?
A:    That’s why it is in “Course Concducted”.

Q:    You shouldn’t put it in there because you are not really involved, don’t you?
A:    I’m not the one who is lecturing. I’m only conducting it.

Q:    You are not dispensing your knowledge in that course but setting it up.
A:    Yes. I’ve stated I conduct the case but did not lecture.

Q:    You conducted hair examination courses, but not giving lecture?
A:    Yes.

MY:    …
YA:     Teruskan.

Q:    Apart from this hair examination course, what is USM practicum stated there?
A:    I teach the USM student.

Q:    What did you teach them?
A:    Forensic DNA Profiling.

Q:    When was that?
A:    2008, 2009 and 2010.
Q:    So, those were the three times you went to USM?
A:    No, they come over and I teach them at the Chemist Departmen Malaysia.t.

Q:    The third last one, [] last year in 2010. How are you involved in this conference?
A:    This conference is a co-joint between Department of Chemistry and the Forensic Science Society of Malaysia. I basically handle the conference from A-Z, making sure everything is all right.

Q:    Did you give a lecture?
A:    No. I give a poster presentation.

Q:    Again, you are involved in setting it up?
A:    Yes.

Q:    What about 4th item, International Symposium on Forensic Science and Environmental Health. What is that symposium?
A:    It consist of the whole of Chemist Department  of Malaysia.

Q:    What is the purpose of the symposium?
A:    The purpose of the symposium is to gather knowledge. It is international, which means that people from overseas comes and give lectures. We will open it up to the public for people who are interested. It’s just like a

normal symposium.

Q:    How are you involved with the symposium?
A:    Again, I handled the symposium from A-Z, making sure everything is in order.

Q:    Have you ever published any papers in a referee journal before?
A:    No.

Q:    Page 6 of your CV under para 11 – proficiency testing participation. Are these test taken out for the purpose of quality assurance?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Each of them will have a lab number?
A:    Yes.

Q:    What is CTS?
A:    Collaborative testing services.

Q:    That was on 01.11.2010?
A:    Yes.

Q:    What is the lab number for that?
A:    (PJ) FOR 1134/10-0.

Q:    That the sample code for number 16?
A:    No. That’s my laboratory number.

Q:    What is the code in your lab for number 16?
A:    I don’t understand the question.

Q:    Your lab participated in this program?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So, each lab will be distinguished from each other, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    They will have a code, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So, your lab will have a code.
A:    Yes.

Q:    What is that code?
A:    I don’t know. I have to look at my file.

Q:    Will you be able to tell us later of the code?
A:    Yes, if that is what you want.

Q:    Where was Dr. Seah when you conducted your analysis in this case?
A:    If I’m not mistaken she already left for US.

Q:    You told us when you received the samples, certain steps were taken after that. Right?
A:    Yes.

Q:    How many samples did you received in this case?
A:    4.

Q:    What was the first step you did when you received all of this four samples?
A:    When the police comes, I took the POL 31. I had a look at the samples. The first thing I ensure is the POL 31 tallies with the samples that has been sent. And I’ll look at the envelope to see the seals and the seals are still

intact. After that I registered the samples from DSP Jude Blacious. It will automatically generate the PJ laboratory number (PJ) FOR 6334-2. It also generate the green sticker with the laboratory number which I then placed on each

of the envelopes. Then I come out with a receipt and when everything is done, all envelopes are put in a plastic packet, heat seal, signed, and then put in the chest freezer for storage.

Q:    When you received the samples, you would have meet Jude?
A:    Yes, I would.

Q:    Where did you meet him?
A:    At the counter.

Q:    Was he with everyone else?
A:    I cannot recall.

Q:    Having done previous examination in cases like this, I’m sure you are aware what degradation means.
A:    Yes.

Q:    Degradation means deterioration of DNA?
A:    Yes.

Q:    In such a case the quality of that DNA will not be as good, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Having that in mind do you agree that degradation is an important aspect in DNA samples in any DNA examination?
A:    If there is degradation.

Q:    Would you agree that the age of the samples received, degradation will carry on over time, isn’t it? So, it’s related to time. The longer the time, the higher the chance of degradation. Would that be right?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So, the age of the samples that you received would be important. You should know how old the samples are.
A:    I  don’t know the age of the samples. I wouldn’t know from the analysis how old is the samples.

Q:    But you would have to be alert of the degradation, isn’t it before you start your analysis?
A:    Not really.

Q:    So, you are not interested in the age of the samples?
A:    No. As long as DNA profile is there, then it’s okay. Because degradation will happen as per your biological fluid leaves your body. However, as long as the DNA analysis gives result, it means even if degradation occurs the

DNA profile is able to get it.

Q:    Was there evidence of degradation in your examination of the samples in this case?
A:    Definitely degradation will have occurred, but the results will still be obtainable and fine therefore even if degradation occur it will not be enough to degrade the whole of the DNA which exist there.

Q:    But there is an element of degradation.
A:    I did not check on degradation.

Q:    Was there degradation in this case?
A:    No. I’m able to get perfect profiles.

Q:    So, in the light of that, there is no degradation?
A:    Degradation does occur.

Q:    Then say there was degradation.
A:    I’m able to get full profile.

Q:    Was there degradation or not?
A:    I’m able to get DNA profile.

Q:    Was there degradation or not?
A:    YA, I cannot answer that question.

RK:    Then say you can’t answer that question. Don’t tell us what we didn’t ask you.
SP6:    Can you please not shout?
RK:    If you answer the question, I won’t.
SP6:    YA, can the counsel please not shout? Please do not shout. I’m here to assist the court.
RK:    Ask her to answer the question, YA.
MY:     She answered I did not test for degradation. That is enough. []
RK:     She’s going on to say that there is some degradation.
MY:    Generally, degradation will coccurs. []
RK:    I’m not talking about generally. I’m talking about this case. With regard to the four samples.
MY:     YA, with regard to this case, if my learned friend listen carefully, she said she did not test for degradation.
YA:    But she went on to explain. I mean in all cases there will be degradation.
MY:    Of course. If you read all the textbook, it says everything will degrade.
RK:    So, answer the question!

Q:    Was there degradation or not?
A:    I did not test for degradation.

YA:    Move on.

Q:    Did you observe degradation regardless you didn’t test it?
A:    YA, I cannot answer that question.

Q:    Why can’t you?
A:    YA, I cannot answer that question.

Q:    Why can’t you answer?
A:    YA, I need to explain. He doesn’t allow me to explain.

Q:    Explain then.
A:    Degradation will always occur as your biological fluid leaves your body. Degradation will always occur in any biological samples. But when you do DNA analysis you are able to get a good perfect profiles. Therefore however

degradation occurs, it is not enough to affect the quality of the DNA profile.

Q:    Do you agree there was degradation in this case?
A:    Yes, there was.

Q:    You know there is degradation because you observe it?
A:    No.

Q:    What is a reference sample?
A:    Yes. It is samples taken from a known person.

Q:    Is it significant?
A:    Yes, they are.

Q:    Why is it significant?
A:    For DNA scientist to know the origin of the DNA profile that is found.

Q:    In this case, did you have the benefit of a reference sample?
A:    No, I did not.

Q:    In lieu with examination and analysis of this case, you said there was statistical data.
A:    Yes.

Q:    Statistical data which gives weight to your findings?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Those statistical data, do you do any validation for samples?
A:    I don’t understand.

Q:    Do you what is validation?
A:    Yes. Basically when you have procedures and protocols you’ve got to validate it [] your laboratory to ensure that the protocols that you used are validated.

Q:    That is important for DNA analysis?
A:    Yes.

Q:    There will be validations in your lab?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Please tell what validations have your lab sone?
A:    Department of Chemistry has done validation in my lab per se on DNA extraction, all the procedures in DNA extraction, []. Basically all procedures in DNA lab has been validated.

Q:    The lab relies on that validation, is that right?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Those validation would be in the lab?
A:    Yes.

Q:    It is in your case notes?
A:    No. In the cabinet in the lab.

Q:    Before any examination is conducted, you have to regards those validation? That will have in your mind, right?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Validations done for drop-out levels? Heterozygote? Homozygous? Threshold reporting level? Stutters?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So, those records in your department will able to tell us  what are the stutter guidelines, the drop-out guidelines.
A:    Yes.

Q:    How many RFU are used in this guideline? Is it the standard amount?
A:    You are talking about the threshold level for detection?

Q:    Yes.
A:    50 RFU.

Q:    What about for drop-outs?
A:    Less than 50 RFU.

Q:    Stutters?
A:    Depends on each loci itself. The range should be 15-20% but the again it depends on each loci.

Q:    Can u give us the exact figure for stutters guideline for each loci?
A:    No.

Q:    But there are exact figures?
A:    Not exact figures, but a range of figures.

Q:    So, your guess will be 15-20%?
A:    Not my guess. It is a guess with a based. It is not a random guess.

Q:    That’s the standard in your lab?
A:    Yes.

Q:    What about peak high balance? Are there guidelines for this as well?
A:    Peak height balance for hetrozygousity?

Q:    No. Just general guidelines for peak high balance.
A:    Yes, there is a standard.

Q:    In percentage term?
A:    Yes.

Q:    What are they?
A:    60%.

Q:    What do you mean by 60%?
A:    When you talk about peak high balance, you are talking about heterozygousity. That means there are 2 peaks. The difference between the two peaks should either or be less than 40%. The balance of the peak should be

60%.

Q:    It would be found in the standard guidelines at your office?
A:    Yes.

Q:    What are these guidelines based on?
A:    These guidelines are based on validation that is done in the lab.

Q:    Over a period of time?
A:    When we talk about validation, when we start off, we have to validate the procedures and all the routines before we can do any DNA analysis. So, these things will be done prior to the DNA analysis.

Q:    From previous, this guidelines have been in existance.
A:    Yes.

Q:    Does it changes?
A:    As we upgrade the instruments, we validate it again and again.

Q:    Were the equipments changed in your lab?
A:    After this case? No.

Q:    So, it applies to all the examples we spoken about?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Does the instrument comes with guidelines?
A:    It come with a manual.

Q:    Manual contains guidelines from the manufacturer?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Suggested guidelines?
A:    Yes.

Q:    What is the manufacturer in this case again? Applied Bio-systems?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Are they still in operation in this country?
A:    No. But they are still in operation. They have an office in Singapore.

Q:    And you are not directly involved in the managing of the software, aren’t you?
A:    No.

Q:    You have no involvement in the managing of the software? You have training in the management of the software, don’t you?
A:    Yes, I do.

Q:    What is the training?
A:    How to use the software

Q:    How to repair it?
A:    No.

Q:    How about how to detect if the machine is not working properly?
A:    Yes, I’m able to detect the irregularity.

Q:    Then what do you do if there are irregularities?
A:    Call the engineer.

Q:    So, you personally won’t be able to fix it? You have to call the engineer?
A:    Yes.
Q:    So, that’s what you learn in the course? Call the engineer?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So, do you agree that you have no direct involvement in managing this software apart from using it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    You told us about your stutter guidelines, each locus will have a stutter guideline. Is that correct?
A:    Yes.

Q:    PCR system that you used, how many loci are there?
A:    16 loci. 15 loci for STR with anmelogenin.

Q:    That 15 loci would have same stutter guideline. Is that right?
A:    No, they have ranges as well.

Q:    So, in order for us to believe you, you can confirm us to what you are telling about guideline that is in the record in your office, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    In this case you told us there was statistical data.
A:    Yes.

Q:    Who actually does this statistical calculation?
A:    Myself, for my case.

Q:    Including this one?
A:    Yes, for cases that I received.

RK:    YA, I’ve got few document I want to refer to. I photocopy them this morning. Some pages are missing and I’ve asked them to rephotocopy. Can I just have a few minutes? 10 minutes?
NB:     No problem.
YA:    Mula balik 10.45 a.m.
[10.25 a.m.] stand down

[10.53 a.m]
Q:    You received 4 samples, after analysis, you found DNA on these samples?
A:    The DNA profile was found from the swab of toothbrush, D1, towel, D2 and bottle D3.

Q:    So apart from the hair, you found DNA on these samples?
A:    Yes.

Q:    All the samples would have their own amount of DNA respectively?
A:    Yes.

Q:    And you stated in EIC that you analyzed 10 samples in this case?
A:    Let me count again. 14 samples.

Q:    Can you list down the sample? You said that you designated number for each of it, isn’t it?
A:    There’s a marking on those exhibits. D, D2(a), blank from the hair, D1(a), D1(b), D2(b), D2(c), D2(d), D2(e), D3(a), D3(b), blank for trace, negative control and positive control.

Q:    You told us that each and every sample would have their own and specific amount of DNA?
A:    Yes.

Q:    And those amounts are measured in what?
A:    Concentration – MG/uL (microliter)

Q:    So the amounts of DNA found in the sample would be important in your analysis?
A:    Yes.

Q:    What is the importance?
A:    To ensure that we are able to get DNA profile from them.

Q:    So that’s the first step?
A:    Quantification is the second step.

Q:    So you determine the amount of [] and you record it, don’t you?
A:    Yes I do.

Q:    This amount, recorded where?
A:    Worksheet.

Q:    That’s amount of information, in your worksheet is in your possession?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Therefore, this quantitation is part of your analysis and your report is produced, ID62?
A:    Yes.

Q:    It is based on those quantitation?
A:    Based on the result of the DNA profile.

Q:    But based on the quantitation earlier isn’t it?
A:    The quantitation is for us to know how much is the concentration of the DNA prior to amplification.

Q:    So, that information is necessary for the preparation of the report, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    I put it to you that the information is a part of the report?
A:    No.

Q:    Out of this 14, you got DNA from how many sample?
A:    10.

Q:    Which were those?
A:    Hair found on towel – D2 (a), swab of toothbrush handle – D1(a), swab of the brush – D1(b), towel area – D2(b), towel area – D2 (c), towel area – D2(d), towel area – D2(e), swab of mouth area of the bottle – D3 (a), swab of

body area of the bottle– D3 (b ). And of course the positive control would have DNA as well.

Q:    So, that is the exact figure of all these? In nanogram? Mg/uL?
A:    Yes.

Q:    That information the Mg/uL, would have varying in determining the swab sample isn’t it? In single profile, mix profile, trace profile.
A:    No, it is just the concentration of the DNA, extracted out.

Q:    That’s the second part of the process, the extraction process. Is that right?
A:    No. Second part is the quantitation.

Q:    Collection process as well, which you are not involves in, is also a recognized step in analysis?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So at that stage when the sample is collected..
A:    I’m not involved.

Q:    Yes I know you are not involved, but in that stage, there’s a safeguard?
A:    Yes.

Q:    In your other cases given before court, evidence in those cases in relation to what kind of what profile?
A:    I don’t understand.

Q:    You do DNA profiling on that cases, right?
A:    I do DNA analysis.

Q:    So, you would come out with report and all that in those cases as well?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Those cases were they involve trace sample?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Can you name those cases, which involve trace sample?
A:    Murder cases, evaluate cases…

Q:    No, can you tell us what case, when did you attend court?
A:    2010 December, in KL court – drug case.

Q:    In that case, what was the exhibit in which the DNA was found?
A:    I can’t remember.

Q:    But you know?
A:    Yes I know, but I can’t remember.

Q:    Apart from that case, did you give evidence in other cases relating to trace sample?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Is it involve trace sample?
A:    Yes.

Q:    When, where?
A:    January, Shah Alam court, for murder case.

Q:    The case file, which include the information of the quantity of DNA, this would have been recorded in the document?
A:    Yes.

Q:    What’s the document called?
A:    Worksheet.

Q:    How many pages of this worksheet?
A:    2.

Q:    Did you, hand over your report to the police?
A:    After the analysis? Give it to the police?

Q:    Yes, together with the exhibits?
A:    Yes.

Q:    You give it to whom in particular?
A:    DSP Jude Blascious Perreira on 22nd of July 2008, 2.15 p.m.

Q:    What do you call trace sample?
A:    Is a sample that is traced through contact.

Q:    In terms of threshold, how did you define that?
A:    I don’t understand.

Q:    You got various samples, aren’t you? Trace sample is one of them. What type of sample are they?
A:    Blood stain, semen stain.

Q:    What is the difference between trace sample and semen stain?
A:    Semen stains are stains that contain spermatozoa. Trace samples are contact, trace DNA are contact DNA, basically DNA taken through contact.

Q:    If you are taking trace sample, is the threshold is the same?
A:    Depending on how much DNA is there. If there is a lot of contact, therefore the threshold will be the same..{tak sempat habiskan}.

Q:    If there is a lot of DNA, you follow the same threshold as standard profile?
A:    I don’t understand the question.

Q:    You extracted DNA from profile, any profile. It is your job isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Having done that, you follow certain guidelines of for certain threshold?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So, in a case of trace profile, those threshold can be the same ?
A:    It can be the same.

Q:    It is the same, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So those threshold that you told earlier, can be found in your lab..I mean those guidelines.
A:    Yes.

Q:    For example, for stutter, you follow the same guidelines?
A:    The stutter…your question again??

Q:    For example, for stutter, there is a guideline in your lab. So, that would apply isn’t it, for trace profile as well?
A:    Yes. It will apply.

Q:    In a typical profile, how did you expect to see normal profile?
A:    Define normal profile?

Q:    In a normal mixture, in a semen profile, what sort of peaks would you expect to see?
A:    The alleles depend on person, it does not depend on how much DNA is there.

Q:    How many alleles that you expect to see in a mix profile, at least?
A:    I can’t answer that question.

Q:    Mix profile, must at least have 2 people, right?
A:    At least two people, yes.

Q:    So at least how many peaks would you see?
A:    It has to look at the whole DNA profile to say that it is a mixture.

Q:    So, having assume that it is mixture, how many profile would you see in locus? Sorry, how many peaks would you see at this locus?
A:    Ranging from 1-4.

Q:    Would you agree that in a trace, that commonly we will see the allelic imbalance?
A:    Commonly yes.

Q:    We will also see random peaks?
A:    Yes.

Q:    We will also commonly see drop out?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Drop in?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So all this common features you will expect to see in a trace profile isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    When you consider trace profile, your mind will be directed to all this things?
A:    Yes.

Q:    I take you to the electropherogram (EPG). I take you to page 6. D2 (b). This is one of the examples from the towel?
A:    This is one of the portions from the towel.

Q:    Did you agree that this is a partial profile?
A:    Yes.

Q:    It has stochastic effect? Random effect, random peaks?
A:    They are not random peaks.

Q:    What did you understand by random peaks?
A:    Peaks that are not supposed to be there.

Q:    What do you mean by that?
A:    This is the partial profile. Is there anything different or put or taken out from here? No. This is only a partial profile.

Q:    So there are no random peaks here?
A:    No.

Q:    Is this of scale data?
A:    No, it is not.

Q:    It is on scale isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Is that means that everything is above threshold here?
A:    Not everything is above threshold that’s why it is a partial profile.

Q:    Now, the stutter percentage, do they vary significantly in a partial profile?
A:    The partial profile is a very low level of DNA profile. No, you don’t see stutters.

Q:    So this page 6 indicates low level of DNA?
A:    Yes. It is a partial profile.

Q:    So you consider this as a trace profile?
A:    No, this is partial profile.

Q:    I take you to page 7, D2 (c). This is another portion of the towel?
A:    Yes.

Q:    This is the partial profile?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Why?
A:    You can see that not all peaks are being called because some of them lies below the threshold level of 50 RFU.

Q:    What about stutters? Are they here?
A:    No.

Q:    So what do you call this?
A:    A partial profile.

Q:    Page 8, D2(d).  Is there any peak here?
A:    Yes.

Q:    For all loci?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Stutter?
A:    No.

Q:    What do you call this, a partial profile?
A:    No, it is a full profile.

Q:    Because all the peaks are there?
A:    Yes.

Q:    But is it a trace profile?
A:    It can be.

Q:    Is it or is it not?
A:    If you are referring to this page 8, it is from trace DNA.

Q:    Having regard to this chart, page 6, 7, 8. You told us that the first two is partial profile, and the page 8 is full profile? Page 8 is a trace DNA?
A:    This is the profile that I’ve taken from a trace DNA.

Q:    Give us the definition of trace DNA then?
A:    Trace DNA is DNA that resulted through contact.

Q:    In terms of guidelines and thresholds..
A:    Ya, you are referring to trace profile.

Q:    Ok, so give me the definition of a trace profile now?
A:    Trace profile is very low, even lower than threshold level. That needs to be put in different technique to enhance it. This is not a trace profile.

Q:    Would it be correct to say that trace profile isn’t as reliable as normal profile, as you require different technique to enhance it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So in order to get proper interpretation, you have to enhance it, isn’t it?
A:    For trace profile, yes.

Q:    Page 8 is a trace profile?
A:    No, it is full profile.

Q:    Page 9, D2 (e). it is another portion of the towel?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So you got 15 loci. Is this trace DNA?
A:    Yes. This is the full profile that I’ve taken from a trace DNA.

Q:    Is this a trace profile?
A:    No, full profile.

Q:    Look at this graphs, before you make any further comment, did you see a mix profile here?
A:    No.

Q:    Look at the first locus, what is the allele there?
A:    15.

Q:    Is that indicate 1 contributor?
A:    Yes.

Q:    No, second locus.
A:    2.

Q:    What’s the allele number?
A:    29 and 30.

Q:    Does it indicate 1 contributor?
A:    Yes.

Q:    For the 3rd locus?
A:    12.

Q:    Does it indicate 1 male contributor?
A:    1 contributor, looking at the locus.

Q:     4th locus?
A:    13.

Q:    Indicate 1 contributor as well?
A:    Yes.

Q:    5TH locus?
A:    15, 18 and 19.

Q:    Indicates one contributor?
A:    Yes. Because the 18 is the stutter peak of the 19.

Q:    Look at it, on the face of it, 15, 18 and 19 – there are 3 peaks, right?
A:    Yes.

Q:    If there is more that 2 alleles. So what does it means?
A:    If there is more than 2 alleles, if the alleles are of the same height, and the alleles are not smaller than other allele, therefore it is a mixture profile.

Q:    Hold on, Aidora. I repeat the question, if there are more than two alleles, how many contributors are there?
A:    More than 1 contributor, at least 2 contributors.

Q:    So if we look at locus D3S1358, we have 3 alleles there?
A:    Yes.

Q:    3 alleles here, means 3 peaks lah?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So at least, 2 contributors here, isn’t it?
A:    No.

Q:    Now can you look at the 6TH profile, how many alleles are there?
A:    1. – the allele is 9.

Q:    What about the next one?
A:    8 and 11.

Q:    2 locus after that?
A:    10, 13, and 18, 23.

Q:    On the next two rows, on the face of it, it has either one or two profile, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So, Out of these 15 loci, locus number 5: D3S3158, is different from other loci isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    The other loci gave us either one or two peaks. It shows that.
A:    Yes.

Q:    Now, you told us that this is DNA sample from trace profile?
A:    No, this is DNA profile taken from DNA trace sample.

Q:    Now, in a situation where you have trace, you told that it is not as reliable as normal profile?
A:    I’ve never said that.

Q:    But you need to take further steps isn’t it?
A:    If you are talking about DNA below the threshold level, yes, but the profile is referring to all above threshold level.

Q:    What the level of threshold?
A:    50 RFU.

Q:    For all kind of sample?
A:    Yes.

Q:    50 RFU is the standard level?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So it applies to a non standard sample ;trace sample as well?
A:    Trace sample is not non standard sample. Standard sample is consist of blood…(tak s    empat jawab)

Q:    But it also use 50 threshold as well isn’t it?
A:    For all samples, regardless it is a trace of semen or not.

Q:    As far as threshold is concern, we don’t discriminate between trace and other sample?
A:    No.

Q:    But they are actually quite different aren’t they? Trace sample and normal sample.
A:    Why are they different?

Q:    They are different in a sense that one has more DNA than the other isn’t it?
A:    Not necessarily so. Trace DNA is DNA that you take from contact. Whether it is a lot or is more is depending on the contact and the significant of the contact. It would not be fair to say that if the profile is low, it is from

trace, No. It could be also from semen, it could be also from blood stain. It is wrong to say that.

Q:    You would used 50 RFU for the normal samples, right?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So there is no difference in your treatment as to trace sample and normal samples, as far as thresholds are concerned?
A:    No.

Q:    And the features in a trace and in a normal sample are quite different isn’t it?
A:    Sometimes, depending on the….(tak sempat jawab)

Q:    Can I suggest that in a normal sample, there could be the presence of unbalanced peak?
A:    In all samples, regardless normal or not. Trace sample is not a non-normal sample, so any sample depending on how much DNA that you have give you difference.

Q:    Now, you got your threshold level and guidelines and so on. We’ve gone through all that already.
A:    Yes.

Q:    We got guidelines for homozygotes and so on?
A:    Yes.

Q:    For stutters, your guideline is what?
A:    Around 15 to 20%.

Q:    So in a case, where you see a stutter that means you don’t [] a reported peak?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So when you don’t regarded [] a reportable peak, you doesn’t obtain a STR result?
A:    Yes.

Q:    If it is a reportable peaks, it would have an impact on your report isn’t it?
A:    I don’t understand.

Q:    Ok, I rephrase it. You have a stutter that you consider that it ought not to be reported.
A:    Yes, I don’t have to report the stutter peak.

Q:    Now, if it is not a stutter, you will have to report it, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    And it would be appeared in your STR result?
A:    Yes.

Q:    If you have a profile of an individual/ contributor in one of the locus, taking about alleles if you observed it, if there are 3 alleles in one locus, you have got more than one person, one contributor, if it is not a stutter, you

report all those three alleles?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So if you report 3 alleles, it would mean that in this particular profile there are more than 2 people are involved?
A:    I disagree.

Q:    So if you reported 3 alleles, you will not say that it is more than 2 contributors?
A:    No.

Q:    You wouldn’t?
A:    No.

Q:    So, if you reported say an 18 allele together with the other 2 alleles, that would mean that there is at least two people isn’t it?
A:    No. I disagree.

Q:    So if a 15, 19, 18 appears in your STR result, you will still say that it is one person?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Even if you reported it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    What’ the point of reporting a third allele?
A:    If they are of the same peaks, and they are of balanced allele, that person might have 3 [] allele.

Q:    So if you have contributor of 15, 19 allele, and you also find allele 18. And you report 15, 18, 19, would it come from one person?
A:    YA, I have to ask this question. You are not talking about this, you are talking at random by one locus?

Q:    Yes.
A:    Ok, if looking at one locus only if I have blood specimen of 15 and 19, and on the crime scene I found 15, 18 and 19, yes I will consider that there is another contributor. One locus only I’m look in. I’m not look in the whole

profile yet.

Q:    Look at page 9, D2 (e). Locus D3S1358, you got 15, 18 and 19 right?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Is that belongs to the same contributor? 15 and 19?
A:    As per all the other, yes.

Q:    Is 18 shared by the 15 and 19?
A:    It is the stutter of 19.

Q:    Could it be 18,18?
A:    No, 18 is a stutter for the peak. YA, I can’t answer the question.

Q:    You can’t answer the question, or you don’t want to answer the question?
A:    I can’t answer the question.

Q:    If you have more than 2 peaks, at least we have more than 2 contributors?
A:    Yes.

Q:    If you have more than 2 peaks, and you reported more than two, that would indicate that there is two contributors at least?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Now, at page 9, you have 3 peaks. Had you reported the 18, that would indicate another party isn’t it?
A:    No, only one person there.

Q:    You told us earlier that your guidelines apply across the board. There is no discrimination in a normal sample and a trace sample?
A:    Trace sample is not non normal sample. It is normal to get trace DNA.

Q:    So, you will use the same stutter guidelines?
A:    Yes.

Q:    And the stutter guidelines for JKM is from 15-20%?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Can’t tell us exactly?
A:    There is no exact figure. That’s a range.

Q:    If a peak below 15%, you consider it as a stutter?
A:    Yes.

Q:    I put it to you that according to the standard of Jabatan Kimia Malaysia, peaks which are less than 15% are considered a stutter?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Can you give the percentage of 18 allele at page 9?
A:    Can I have the calculator. It is 25%.

Q:    18 of 19?
A:    Yes.

Q:    In other words, the 18 peaks is the quarter number of the 19 peaks?
A:    Yes.

Q:    18 is 25% of 19, I put it to you the 25% of 18 peak, doesn’t come within the Jabatan Kimia’s stutter guideline?
A:    Yes, I agree.

Q:    So the 18 allele is not considered as a stutter, according to the guideline. Do you agree?
A:    It is not within the guidelines.

Q:    So it is not considered as a stutter according to your Jabatan Kimia guidelines?
A:    If you have to follow the guidelines, It does not.

Q:    This 18 peak according to your Jabatan Kimia guideline, based on the guidelines, it is not considered a stutter?
A:    Yes.
Q:    If it is not considered a stutter, you would reported it don’t you?
A:    I considered it as stutter.

Q:    No, if you are not considered it as a stutter, it is reported isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    If it is reportable, it should have appear in your result isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    You have chosen not to report an 18 allele here.
A:    Yes.

Q:    Despite it is not a stutter according to your Jabatan Kimia’s guidelines?
A:    Yes.

Q:    That lab guidelines apply to all profile isn’t it? It does not discriminate?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Now, if 18 allele is reported, you would have 3 alleles at that particular locus?
A:    Yes.

Q:    I put it to you, if you have 3 alleles at that particular locus, DS31358, that you would have a mixture of DNA?
A:    I disagree.

Q:    I put it to you further, that if you reported the 18 allele apart from the 15 and 19 allele, that would indicate that there is presence of at least 2 people which you detected?
A:    I disagree.

Q:    If you look at page 9 again, from this graph, is there any other evidence of peaks below threshold?
A:    Yes, they are.

Q:    What was that indicate?
A:    They are noise level, that’s why they are below the threshold level.

Q:    Look at the first locus D8S1179, it has 15 allele.
A:    Yes.

Q:    And there is next peak?
A:    Yes.

Q:    And it also applies to the next locus, D21S11, there’s 2 peaks next to 30 allele isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    THO1, also we see another peak?
A:    Yes.

Q:    In fact the peaks are in all of the loci isn’t it?
A:    … (tak jawab)

Q:    Ok, all the loci indicate peaks isn’t it? You said before the sub level of threshold?
A:    ..for [negativable] peak there.

Q:    For all the loci?
A:    No.

Q:    Can you tell us which loci that do not have sub level of threshold peaks?
A:    TPOX, the amelogenin. That’s all.

Q:    What are the recommendations of your lab when you recognized sub threshold peak.
A:    Ought to report them.

Q:    So did you report it? So you do absolutely nothing about it?
A:    No.

Q:    You told us earlier, that it is in the statistical calculation? That is the statistical calculation that you did in this case?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Is it in your possession?
A:    Yes.

Q:    You have it in your case file?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Now, those statistical calculations are based on guideline? Are there any guidelines that involved in statistical calculation?
A:    I don’t understand the question.

Q:    Do you follow any protocol or any recommendation, any guideline when you make those statistical calculations?
A:    What we calculate is just based on frequency involved.

Q:    Does your lab have any guidelines with relation to this frequency? How did you calculate it, how you interpret it?
A:    Basically when you have the DNA profile, you calculate the match probability all to give the vantage of the evidence. So, one, you can read the match probability that means you calculate it as per se. The next one you can

calculate using the NRC (National Research Council) guidelines for which is incorporate data [] factor.  At the end of it, you can see [], just for calculation, if any relationship involve.

Q:    This guideline for this calculation, apply to all statistical calculation, in DNA profile. We call it guidelines lah, for ease of reference here.
A:    Yes, for the next calculation.

Q:    Those guidelines will apply to all of the samples?
A:    Yes.

Q:    It is standard?
A:    It is not guidelines.

Q:    You just name that.  I call them guideline, ok.
A:    Ok.

Q:    So those guidelines do not discriminate between different samples?
Q:    Yes

Q:    In single sample, mix sample, trace sample?
A:    If between mixtures we don’t use the one that I’m using. It will be different calculation altogether.

Q:    A single profile?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So this guidelines will apply across the board isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    And that is your internal policy of Jabatan Kimia, for those guidelines?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Do you know what low copy number is?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Do you know what low template number is?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Are they different?
A:    It is more or less the same, depends on how you call them. Certain labs said that it is the same, certain lab said it is not the same.

Q:    It is indicate sample of low levels of DNA?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So for both of them, that is what it is isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Is it easy to analyze compared to single normal profile?
A:    No.

Q:    It is harder isn’t it?
A:    It is different.

Q:    You have optimum amount of DNA, in a single profile right. It makes the job easier, compared to low amount of DNA?
A:    We don’t do low copy number. Low copy number is when you increase the cycle, which is not happening here.

Q:    But you have to take further steps in increasing it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Those steps will include extra cycles?
A:    Yes.

Q:    In normal cycle of PCR is 28 right?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So in a low copy number of situation, how many cycles are there?
A:    Depending on the lab. Some lab using 30-34. Some lab push to 36. But I don’t know which lab goes to 38 and above.

Q:    In a trace sample, there is a situation where there is low level of DNA as well?
A:    Trace sample may contain low level of DNA.

Q:    In your lab, in terms of nanograms per micro liter, that’s the measurement right?
A:    For concentration.

Q:    For your lab, what defines trace sample?
A:    We don’t define trace sample. Trace sample is trace contact DNA.

Q:    So the concentration of the DNA might be low, isn’t it?
A:    It does not mean that the concentration of trace sample must be low. It is not. It can be low, but not only for trace.

Q:    The question is, it can be low?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Now, are they also measured in terms of peak height?
A:    No.

Q:    Now, for the trace samples, what is considered trace sample? Below threshold number isn’t it? That’s what you told earlier.
A:    No. It is not trace sample. Trace sample we got from contact DNA. Trace profile, yes.

Q:    So for trace profile, in terms of nanogram per microliter, you came out with the figure for each particular samples?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So in this case, you analyzed 14 samples?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Out of which, 10 samples you got DNA?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So, for those 10, you can enlighten us what the number of concentration was?
A:    Yes, I can.

Q:    And that information would be important in terms of your analysis isn’t it?
A:    Yes.
Q:    Now, in a trace sample, you received exhibits, certain items. And these items will be analyzed later consider them to be trace. Is that right?
A:    Can you repeat the question please?

Q:    Your items that you received, you considered them to be traced.
A:    Ok.

Q:    You received from police, and then you say that it is trace.
A:    I did not base on the police. The police only tell me what they need me to do, what analysis that I should do.

Q:    So Jude will come to you, and he said please do trace profile for me, isn’t he?
A:    No.

Q:    Because he wouldn’t know that?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So he would come and say please do DNA profiling?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So you will have to make the decision, not the police isn’t it?
A:    Yes. I will have to make the decision.

Q:    So you will get information from the police, about the samples?
A:    Are you talking about this case, or generally?

Q:    In this case.
A:    In this case, I was only been told that I have to do DNA profiling.

Q:    So in generally you will get information?
A:    Ok, if it is a murder case, and you had been given a knife. And we found a blood stain on the tip of the knife. The police do not tell us, but we still had to do trace on the handle. Do you understand? Or if on a weapon, let

say the police said that the weapon is used, and then the police did not have to tell me that I have to carry out the trace, but I have to carry out on my own.

Q:    So, back to your analogy. You’ve been given knife, there’s a blood on it, and the police give no information?
A:    I found that there is blood stain there; if the police don’t have to tell me, I still have to do trace profile. But some police will say, please trace on the knife. But in this particular case, I only had been told to do DNA profiling.

Q:    In that process, In the light of that, bearing that it mind that this was a trace sample to you, you would have been aware, or be very alert to the possibility of drop in isn’t it?
A:    …

Q:    Now, drop in is a common feature in trace sample?
A:    No.

Q:    Drop out?
A:    No.

Q:    I’m talking about trace. Not a low copy number. Now, you will be alert to drop in isn’t it?
A:    No, you are talking about trace profile. It is not for a trace sample. It is different.

Q:    Now, would drop in be expected?
A:    In trace profile, yes. Not in trace DNA.

Q:    Would drop out be expected?
A:    In trace profile, yes.

Q:    Everything I’m talking now is trace profile, not trace sample.
A:    Yes.

Q:    What else would you expect to see?
A:    Peak imbalance.

MY:    YA, at this juncture, I wish to ask a question. I did not see the relevancy of asking this question unless it has been established that she is using trace profile. Since the counsel always say that trace profile, trace DNA,

trace sample all over again. While the witness said that they are different. This is wasting our time.
RK:    This question is relevant to in what she tested, trace sample.
YA:    She’s not saying that it is a trace profile. She’s saying trace sample. But your question asked about trace profile. That’s why they are complaining.
RK:    No, at this moment.
MY:    Because throughout, she maintains that there is a difference between trace profile and trace DNA. Here, she’s talking about trace DNA, and at no time she agrees to counsel’s suggestion that this locus is trace profile. I

know that these questions give some latitude, but there must be some limit to it.
RK:    Look at page 9..
YA:    So you stop on that ok. Don’t repeat it again.
RK:    No, I might use it again. There might be some overlapping on that issue again.
YA:    But not the major part lah.
RK:    No.
YA:    Ok, for the time being, I’m going to allow, because he said that it will not form a major part. How long will be your cross after this?
RK:    I think I will take about maybe hour and a half.
YA:    So, we will come back in the afternoon. At 3 p.m.

[12.05] Mahkamad ditangguhkan.

[3.04 p.m.]
Q:    Look at page 9 of the EPG. Look at the profile. You are of the view that this is the single profile with no other contributor. Is that correct?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Your lab uses the identify kit?
A:    Yes.

Q:     Is that come with the manual?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Have you read the manual?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Can I take you to the manual?
A:    Yes.

RK:    YA, we have used it earlier, only this is another copy of it with the cover.
YA:    Which one do you used?
RK:    I used the new one.
YA:    Same manual is it? So can use either one.
RK:    Yes, only to one page I’m referring to.

Q:    Page 4-39: This talk about mixture studies isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So this is the guideline, on detecting mixture sample?
A:    This is the user manual, yes.

Q:    It is the manufacturers guidelines isn’t it?
A:    It is a manual.

Q:    Guidelines of ABI?
A:    Yes.

Q:    I take you to the first para 8.1.1.2: Mixture studies. On the 3rd line. It states that it recommends each laboratories assign minimum peak height threshold based on validation experiment perform in each lab to avoid [] when

stochastic effect are likely to interfere with accurate interpretation of mixtures. Now, what they are saying is each lab would have come out with their own peak height threshold isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Your lab is 50 RFU. Can I take you to further down of that page under the topic detection of mixture samples. (read). So they set out 3 criteria in determining mixture sample, isn’t it?  (read)
A:    Yes.

Q:    So did you agree that this 3 are standard guidelines of ABI in detecting mixture samples?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Can I take you to page 9 again of your graphs. You told us earlier that the peak height balance threshold for ratio for heterozygotes in your lab is 60%. Would it be correct to say anything more than 60% would be

considered as a balance peak height? Anything below than 60% will be considered as peak height imbalance?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Can I take you to locus D3S..before that in this graphs of 15 loci, 16 including the gender,  from this can you tell us if there is any peak there which shows imbalance?
A:    There is.

Q:    What locus?
A:    D13S317.

Q:    What’s the percentage?
A:    Can I borrow calculator? 55%.

Q:    Any other locus with peak height imbalance?
A:    D16S539.

Q:    Calculate the percentage?
A:    51%.

Q:    Any other locus?
A:    FGA. The percentage is 52%.

Q:    Any other loci, apart from those three?
A:    No.

Q:    Those 3 were the only have peak height imbalance?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Look at DS31358. Peaks there are 15 and 19. Are they imbalance?
A:    No.

Q:    You told us that your lab stutter guideline is between 15-20%?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Is there a presence of a peak at page 9..look at page 9,  of any peak here, where there is any presence of stutter that is significantly greater in percentage than your laboratory stutter guidelines?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Which one is that?
A:    D3S1358.

Q:    Is that the 18 allele that you are talking about?
A:    Yes.

Q:    It is 25% right?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So that is significantly greater than your lab standard guidelines?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Look at entire profile again in Page 9. Two of the criteria in the manual that I’ve just referred to you for detection of mix samples, are present in this profile at page 9?
A:    Yes.

Q:    These two criteria, is evidence of four independent loci. Correct?
A:     Yes.

Q:    Now, going by this manual, and the criteria that I’ve just read out to you, that it seems to be an evidence of a mix specimens in this profile isn’t it?
A:    (tak sempat jawab).

Q:    Going by this manual?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Going by this manual which is a standard manual for kit that you used?
A:    Yes.

Q:    We can conclude that this is the mix sample?
A:    No, we cannot conclude.

Q:    I put it to you that the evidence at Page 9 provides 4 indications of a mix samples, do you agree?
A:    Based on the manual? Yes.

Q:    I put it to you further that the 18 allele at DS31358 is significantly larger in percentage to your lab guidelines?
A:    Yes.

Q:    I put it to you that at page 9, is a sample of a mix profile?
A:    I disagree.

Q:    So you’ve got 4 independent loci here which the manual here tell us that it indicates a mix sample, and you choose not to follow the criteria of the manual? Did you follow the criteria of the manual?
A:    We have our own..(tak sempat habiskan)

Q:    You choose not to follow the criteria; as a result, you completely ignored 4 independent loci in mix sample?
A:    I cannot answer that question.

Q:    Have you considered them? The criteria in the manual?
A:    No.

Q:    You ignored them, haven’t you?
A:    It is not totally ignored. I’ve done validation before.

Q:    Validations would say that it is a mixture.
A:    I disagree.

Q:    So, standard guidelines you refused to follow, and you come to your conclusion that this is the single profile. You gave us an example just now of a knife, in your evidence earlier this morning. If you were given a bloody

knife, knife with blood on it on the blade, and you were asked to carry out DNA analysis on it, on the item, particularly on the handle, that would also be trace isn’t it?
A:    Yes. Trace sample.

Q:    Similar to what we have here? In this case.
A:    Contact DNA.

Q:    If you have a situation like that where you were asked to carry out the analysis from the handle, now assuming if that handle give you a profile which is exactly the same with what we have on Page 9. Now, and you are

given information by way of reference sample that the major single profile in that sample is of the victim. So you know what the victim’s profile is. So from that information, you know that the major peak is of the profile at page 9 and

it is of the victim. And that is the scenario before you now. What will you do as the result?
A:    The same.

Q:    What? You’ve been asked to do a DNA analysis. Your job is to come out with a profile.
A:    Yes.

Q:    You’ve been told by whoever it is that the reference sample is of the victim’s profile is. Now, but you been asked to focus your attention on the assailant, not the victim. So you have information that the victim’s profile is as

per the reference sample which it happens to be a major peak in a profile. So would that mean that the victim is the major contributor to that profile?
A:    It is a single profile.

Q:    So, what would your conclusion be? What would you do as the result?
A:    The same. I will report it as the single profile.

Q:    I put it to you that at allele 18 of page 9, it ought to be reported because it fulfills the validated your lab guidelines?
A:    No.

Q:    Do you agree with my suggestion that you ought to report page 9 as a mix profile?
A:    No, I disagree.

Q:    I put it to you that the validated guidelines in your lab would, if the consideration of those validated guidelines being applied to this profile, you will come out with mixed profile?
A:    I disagree.

Q:    I put it to you further that the mixture if you follow the guidelines, would at least point to other person’s DNA which has contaminated the profile at page 9?
A:    I disagree.

Q:    Now, you told us that your report is to be read together with Dr. Seah’s report. Can I refer to P25? Can I take you to there is an item B9 as stated at page 2 of the report. Further down in the report, at page 4, roman vii)

{read}, now can I take you to STR result accompanied this report?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Can I take you to electropherogram with relation to B9 of Dr Seah’s report, page 18, P52. This is the profile with relation to B9 in Dr. Seah’s report. Can I take you to the locus of D3S1358. How many alleles you see there?
A:    5.

Q:    Can you tell us what the percentage of 18 alleles is?
A:    28.4%.

Q:    Does that fulfill your guidelines to be qualified as a stutter?
A:    No.

Q:    So it wouldn’t be consider as a stutter?
A:    From standard guidelines? No.
Q:    This 18 allele, we go back to your report in the summary, I take you to iii) to that particular locus under sperm extract for swab B9. 18 is not being reported there, again?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So you got an 18 allele, in your sample, D2 (e) yes. The towel you got an 18 allele.
A:    Yes.

Q:    In the swab of lower rectal of the complainant, also found an 18 allele.
A:    Yes.

Q:    So two 18 alleles are found in 2 separate items?
A:    Yes.

Q:    These 2 separate items, have been analyzes by you and Dr. Seah respectively?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Did you consider it unusual in a case like this, that you will have a coincidence of two same alleles appeared in different sample?
A:    No.

Q:    So, the complainant does he has an 18 allele?  Or you wouldn’t know don’t you?
A:    No, I don’t know.

Q:    Male Y does he has 18 allele B3?
A:    No.

Q:    I put it to you that the presence of 18 allele indicates a party other than Male Y in your finding?
A:    I disagree.

Q:    I put it to you, that you couldn’t exclude the possibility of the presence of another person be that 18 allele had contaminated in your sample, particularly in D2 (e)?
A:    I disagree.

Q:    Does any of your staff in Jabatan Kimia has 18 allele?
A:    I wouldn’t know. I wouldn’t be able to tell you off hand.

Q:    Have you taken the step of excluding the possible contamination by your staff when testing D2 (e)?
A:    No.

Q:    Did you agree that contamination can arise in trace sample analysis?
A:    It is arises in any sample.

Q:    It is something which can happen isn’t it? Something that is not unusual?
A:    Yes.

Q:    It is possible?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Trace sample can be contaminated?
A:    Yes. Any sample can be contaminated.

Q:    Do you have the samples all the profile of your doctors and staff?
A:    Yes, we do.

Q:    So you would be able to carry out an exclusion exercise if you want to?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Do you have the profile of the police as the reference sample, the police who handled this case, especially those who involved in the investigation of this case. For example, DSP Jude. He came into contact with all the

samples, right? I suggest to you that Jude can come into contact with B9 also, which is low rectal swab?

Q:    He is the one who passed the item to you, isn’t it?
A:    He passed the envelopes to me.

Q:    He is also part of the police investigation team in this case, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Do you have any profile of Jude or any police officer as a reference sample? Easily if you wanted, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    The purpose of having a reference sample is so that you know whose profile it is, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So you can test or you can exclude any involvement or any contamination of any samples, isn’t it?
A:    Yes.

Q:    So, do you have the profile of Jude or any police officer involves in this police investigation to exclude them as possible contaminators of the items that you analysed?
A:    No.
Q:    I put it to you, you didn’t exclude the possibility of a police officer involved in this case or even Jude who might have an allele 18 at locus D3S1358 from contaminating the items that you analyse. Do you agree?
A:    I agree.

RK:    YA, I’ve no further question. Much obliged.
YA:    Your re-examination panjang ke?
NB:    Pendek saja.
YA:    Boleh habis sebelum 4.30 p.m.?
NB:    Ya, boleh.

Re-examination of SP6 by NB.

Q:    Puan  Aidora. I will first take you to allele 18. That allele 18 was referred to you that was found at your electro-phoreogram graph, page 9 of electro-phoreogram graph. You can confirm that you consider this allele 18 as

stutters?
A:    Yes, this is a stutter peak.

Q:    You also testified during cross-examination the percentage was higher than the threshold.
A:    Yes.

Q:    It was put to you that you should have reported because it’s higher.
A:    Yes.

Q:    Despite the percentage which is higher, why did you not report this?
A:    When you are looking at a DNA report, you can’t look at one locus per se. You’ve got to look at the whole profile. Furthermore, you can see that this is a stutter peak and there is no mixed DNA profile here. It is only at

one locus which is 5% higher than the actual 20%. So, it is not significant. Even if is higher for example if the peak height of 18 is 300++, it will be [] allelic leather. It will still be reported as one person’s DNA. It is not a mixed profile

or contaminated by another person.

Q:    Was there an occurrence of contamination on this specimes and on this profile at  page 9 of your ID59?
A:    No, there is no element of contamination at all, nor by my staff nor by anybody else. It’s a single profile reported.

Q:    As to the other profile, have you taken into consideration of the occurrence of degradation on all the samples?
A:    It is a traced samples and this is the profiles. And you can see that the profiles are consistence. Having degraded samples means sometimes you get partial profiles and in my case there are full profiles generated. And if

the question arises why [].  If you look at the profile side by side you can see it is from the same person. Therefore it is our guideline is of all the samples, it is of one towel therefore it is reported only one person and the best profile

and the strongest profile gets reported out which means the profile “D2(b)” and “D2(c)” since both of them are strong profiles.

Q:    Did you also take into consideration the occurrence of contamination on all the samples that you have received?
A:    There is no contamination that occurs as all the profiles were all right. All the quality assurance are in place. The reagent blank stays blank. If this 18 peaks is a contamination or contaminated by the people in my lab, why

aren’t the others contaminated as well? And even the trace for the blank is blank.  Even my negative control is blank. If there is contamination, then you could see all the allele 18 in all of the loci D3S1358 across all of the traced

samples that I analyse. But only one which has the18 which means it is a stutter, authenticate stutter.

Q:    ID59 h9 of your electro-phoreogram graph is a sample, swabs that you have taken from the samples. Do you find this allele 18 in other swabs on the towel?
A:    One portion of the towel. No.

Q:    Where would it be reflected?
A:    It will be reflected in page 8,7 and 6 of the electro-phoreogram graph

Q:    The last question about whether you took any reference samples from DSP Jude and for that matter all the police personnel who is involve in the investigation of this case. My question is, do you have any reasons to do

this, to take the reference samples and to exclude the possibility?
A:    No, I have no reason to do so.

Q:    Why?
A:    Like I’ve stressed from the beginning, if you look at all the profiles side by side, you would know it is of one person and there is no contamination at all from another person. You cannot look and say there is contamination

in the profile based only on one loci. That is not how you interpret DNA profiles. Interpretation of DNA profiles need a lot of care and caution. It is not fair to look at one and conclude on the whole profile. That is very wrong. You have

to look at the whole profile and then you conclude your findings. []

Q:    So, it must be based on the whole profile?
A:    Yes, on the whole profile and others as well. Especially when you have more than one swabs of the same thing.

Q:    Would this explanation also be the same as to why you disagree the suggestion of the counsel that there could be some other contributor because of the presence of allele 18 here?
A:    Yes, the explanation would be the same.

Q:    Can you please confirm again as regard to profile of  ID59A, page 9 is it a mixed profile or a single profile?
A:    It is a single profile.

Q:    You were referred to the manual just now and you were asked why you did not follow this manual despite the fact that there is a presence of a greater allele [] and you said you did not follow this manual supplied by the

manufacturer of the Identifilar kit. Why is that?
A:    Not only this particular case. If there is another case with the same DNA profile, it  will be reported as a single profirle and I will not follow the guidelines given because the guidelines are given as a guidelines. We have our

own standard validated protocol and this would be review again. Like I’ve said, there was four portion of the towel. And when ,u look at it side by side you will know it is of a single profile and it is all very clear so that does not apply

here.

Q:    You don’t have no reference sample in your analysis?
A:    No, I don’t have.

Q:    But you are really confident to say that you are certain that this is a single profile and disagree that this is a mixed profile. Please explain why do you disagree that this is a mixed profile?
A:    We go to page 9 again. Look at locus D8S1179 up to the FGA, you can only see there is only one or two and even at D3S1358 the peak 18 is only 25% higher. It is not even 50% or 70% higher and that is the only

particular locus that has that. When you look at the rest of that, I can confidently says that this is of a single profile, one person.

Q:    Since you were asked about stutter, can you please inform the court what could have caused stutters.
A:    Stutter is due to the slippage during the PCR process. It is always one repeat unit lower than the actual peak.

Q:    Can you confirm that you only find the incident only at page 9 of the profile?
A:    Yes, only at page 9, only at locus D8S1138.

Q:    What is stochastic effect?
A:    Stochastic effects is the peak imbalanced between two peaks.

Q:    In this case, did you find this stochastic effect that could have happened?
A:    Yes, it happened in page 9. It has three loci that has the stochastic effect.

Q:    In fact you have calculated the percentage as well, right?
A:    Yes, I have.

Q:    Does it effect your conclusion?
A:    No, it does not.

Q:    Regarding the Genetic Analyser machine, the 3130XL which you said  is the latest model which was used back in 2007. Were there any difference between this latest model with the previous model, 3100XL?
A:    It is the same machine. It’s just that it’s being upgraded to 3130XL. For example, you have a Mitsubishi car and you change your engine from Mitsubishi to a Honda, it’s still a Mitsubishi car but with a Honda engine. So,

it’s the same machine. The machine does not change. The body is still the same. It’s just it’s being upgraded as 3130XL.

Q:    With this new model, are you familiar with handling of this machine in your analysis and examination ?
A:    Yes, the handling of the machine does not change, it does not differ.

Q:    We come to your statistical data which you said the calculation will be done by a  DNA view software to calculate the match. Can you confirm again that calculation will only be done if there is  a match?
A:    Yes.

Q:    Regarding the DNA view software. To calculate the match, can you do it manually without the help of the software?
A:    Yes. It can be done manually.

Q:    How would you do that?
A:    The software only helps ytou to get the calculation done faster. The calculation is based on the frequencies where you do database. This calculation can be done using the calculator and the formula. It’s just a

mathematical calculation that can be done manually.

Q:    Regarding with the handling of POL 31. You were questioned in your cross-examination just now about the Head of your Section, Mr. Lim Kong Boon. My question is this, were you handed over the POL 31 by Mr. Lim

Kong Boon in this case?
A:    No

Q:    From where did you get the POL 31 at that point of time?
A:    From DSP Jude Blacious.

Q:    You also testified just now that you don’t know about hair examination. And in this case you are profiling on hair sample. What do you mean by you don’t know much about this hair examination?
A:    The learned counsel pointed to me on the hair examination course which I conducted, but not lectured. Lectures were given by Australian Federal Police personnel. That particular hair examination course was based on the morphology of the hair. The hair examination was under a microscope. It has nothing to di with DNA analysis.

Q:    If you were to conduct DNA analysis on hair, what will be the position?
A:    I’m competent to do DNA analysis on hair.

Q:    You also said that you did not do any degradation test. Is there a necessity for you to conduct any degradation test in this analysis of yours?
A:    No, there is no reason to do for a degradation test since the profiles were all single profiles which I can get perfect DNA profiles, so there is a necessity to do so.

Q:    You testified you have no direct involvement in the managing of the software, but you said you’ll be able to detect any irregularity apart from after that that you will call the engineer. Please tell the court how would you be able to detect any irregularity?
A:    When we use the Genetic Analyser together with the software, you have to do certain maintenance procedure before you run the samples. There will be indication to see if the machine is working fine and in its ordinary course of business. And also that is not being used only once every months for this particular case. Practically, we are using the Gentic Analyzer every day. We have our quality assurance which is the positive control and the negative control which also helps us to see whether the profile are correct or not. []. If there is something wrong with the instrumentation, the positive control will gives you a difference profile altogether which shows there is something wrong with the Genetic Analyser. In this case,  the positive control profile were perfect as to what the manufacturer kit’s profile so therefore there is nothing wrong with the instrument and the instrument is running in its ordinary course of business.

Q:    About quantification, you were asked whether you record this quantification based on the DNA profile an you said you don’t . The question is there a practice or a standard procedure that the analyst in Jabatan Kimia Malaysia has got to put in their report the quantification that they have done on a DNA profile?
A:    No.

Q:    Please explain to the court what is the different between traced sample, traced DNA and traced profile?
A:    Traced DNA are DNA taken through contact, which means that when I touch something and I swabbed it, that would be traced DNA. Traced profiles are the  profile that are below threshold level which are elevated or enhanced to different method. In my analysis, I did not do any enhancement or treat this profiles to traced DNA profile. They were traced DNA samples, contact DNA, subjected to normal procedures. No traced profile here.

Q:    Why there is non necessity for any enhancement here?
A:    1. The concentration of the DNA was good that I can get 1-2 nanograms for my amplification steps to get the profile out;
2. All the peak height are above threshold;
3. They are all single good profile, you need not to enhance it.
4. Jabatan Kimia Malaysia does not do enhancement of profiles. It is our protocol that If you don’t get it then that’s it. You don’t do enhancement of DNA profiles.

Q:    About the concentration, the nanogram per micro litre. How much concentration did you used in this analysis?
A:    1-2 nanograms. Standard.

NB:    YA, itu sahaja soalan semula saya untuk saksi ini dan jika tiada apa-apa soalan daripada Mahkamah, saya memohon agar saksi ini dilepaskan.
MY:    I’ve just mentioned to my learned friend before he started just now. We intend to tender this report as P. The question is this, can we just convert it to P if the ruling in our favour.
YA:    If the ruling is in your favour, then we will convert it into P without calling this witness. Continue Monday.
[4.02 p.m.] Adjourned.

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